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Releases
11-30-2010, 12:12 AM,
#1
Releases
I'm opening this thread to start a discussion about releases. charlieg has mentioned several times that VDrift should do a new release.

The problem is that the project has never adopted any kind of release strategy or schedule. Historically the method was basically, wait until trunk becomes fairly stable, take a snapshot of trunk and release it with a date. Because there is no planning for upcoming releases, the project is often in a state of several projects in development, and data format tends to get behind.

So, should the project have a different strategy for release? If so, what should it be? Who will coordinate release planning, help prepare for releases, help create releases, and announce them? Should the version-number scheme (date) continue to be used, or a different one (if so, what)?
Reply
11-30-2010, 06:12 AM,
#2
 
We should target a released for Thursday. The enitre game has to be perfect by then.

But on a serious note, before thinking about the next release, it's possible more effort should be put into what on
http://code.google.com/p/vdrift/issues/list is actually at what priority, and how many issues can be closed already. Then fix everything that's still critical, make a release, and assign tasks for future releases.
Reply
11-30-2010, 07:02 AM,
#3
 
Release early, release often. That way users get to stay closer to development, can give more useful feedback, and the development version tends to stay a little more organized - discouraging the kind of situation you have now where data lags a long way behind the engine.

Of course these things are always more complicated than the above paragraph, and releasing a stable version for a project as sophisticated as vdrift is a non-trivial task.

I'd recommend isolating which data is closest to being ready, and focus on that, as a release with 1 perfect track and 1 perfect car is superior to a release with 10 half baked tracks and 10 half baked cars - IMHO.

Of course, if the project is not in a releasable state, you shouldn't do it for the sake of it, but releases tend to encourage a healthy state of code and data. Again, all IMHO.
Reply
11-30-2010, 08:13 AM,
#4
 
Well from that point of view (although I have to ask what gives you the impression that the data is actually lagging behind the game), a release is probably feasible as soon as the spurious rollovers are sorted and replays are fixed.
Reply
11-30-2010, 11:20 AM,
#5
Re: Releases
thelusiv Wrote:Because there is no planning for upcoming releases, the project is often in a state of several projects in development, and data format tends to get behind.
Reply
11-30-2010, 02:08 PM,
#6
 
while i like the current release strategy for various reasons, i feel that the popularity of vdrift has suffered because of it. just my opinion though Tongue

how about we continue the current release process, but we release a more solid and stable version every three or six months.

we could start by releasing a version "0.5" just before christmas? and in-between our "stable" releases with a version number, we'll release snapshots with the date as the version like we do now.
Reply
11-30-2010, 04:55 PM,
#7
 
Quote:although I have to ask what gives you the impression that the data is actually lagging behind the game
I guess it's me. Not happy with the cars at all. But it's my own fault I know.

Quote:I'd recommend isolating which data is closest to being ready, and focus on that, as a release with 1 perfect track and 1 perfect car is superior to a release with 10 half baked tracks and 10 half baked cars
My personal nightmare. Having one car, track doing well and spend another year fixing the other 36, eventually pissing off the few contributors we've got. I am already abusing them as testers running the trunk unstable.
Reply
11-30-2010, 07:22 PM,
#8
 
I mean don't throw in stuff that's not working well when you could be spending time improving that which already works but could be better. The 1 to 10 thing was not quite literal. Keep the workload manageable rather than being too inclusive of stuff that isn't ready yet - just encourage contributors to get their work ready for the next release.
Reply
11-30-2010, 09:15 PM,
#9
 
I am frustrated and meanwhile passive. Sometimes i read the forum. The latest two releases had problems, no fun. I planned some online-tools helping tuning the cars. But waiting a year for a release (hoping for a mac version) coming with a massive changed car-model is too much time for me.
Reply
11-30-2010, 11:08 PM,
#10
 
NaN Wrote:I guess it's me. Not happy with the cars at all. But it's my own fault I know.
I was basing that on the thread requesting help to update cars for new suspension points. This is a pretty common issue with VDrift, new features are added to the game, and the data must be updated to support it. With n being number of new data features and d being the number of data files to update, it is always an n * d operation to perform the update, and as d is always increasing, the problem will only get larger.

NaN Wrote:My personal nightmare. Having one car, track doing well and spend another year fixing the other 36, eventually pissing off the few contributors we've got. I am already abusing them as testers running the trunk unstable.
The problem is that this issue will come up over and over. I think that VDrift needs some solution to this problem that will address it long term. The work you are doing now on improving the car format will go a long way to reducing the need to do it in the future, but it will not fix the problem permanently.

Here are some ideas that would make this problem easier to deal with:
  • branch the data repository when new code branches are made that will affect data format.
  • make sure new settings in data files take on good defaults, so that loading old data files still works, but without new features.
  • write migration scripts to automate changes to data file format.
  • embed a revision number or version number in the data files to indicate which format they were created with. this will help with both the previous bullets.
  • (come up with a regular release schedule and) only make major changes to data file formats at major releases, so that the "data API" is known to contributors at every release, and publish a list of changes (as well as a data format migration script, perhaps) to this API to make transitions easy.
  • ensure that data contributors are up to the task of performing updates on their contributed data before data format changes are made.
  • choose a small number (10 or less) of "reference" cars and tracks to include in every release, which the developers will maintain as they make changes to the data formats, and which data contributors can use as examples to update their community maintained data.

While that last bullet may be distasteful to some, it is a reality that a small project can't sustain an increasingly large number of data files on its own - it must rely on community contributors to create and maintain much of the data. Likewise, the project must ensure that the community is not overwhelmed with work when changing data formats, so a balance must be struck between these goals: data format features (and subsequently game features), contributor enthusiasm and workload, and release schedule.

Those are just my suggestions on data, but I think it would go a long way to decreasing time between releases, and subsequent frustration of users and contributors. I also think that simply reorganizing the data repository would make a big difference, or perhaps splitting it into a few separate repositories.

I could help enact some or all of these changes if the other people involved in the project agree that they would be helpful.

Thoughts?
Reply
12-01-2010, 01:56 PM,
#11
 
Quote:branch the data repository when new code branches are made that will affect data format.
OK

Quote:make sure new settings in data files take on good defaults, so that loading old data files still works, but without new features.

embed a revision number or version number in the data files to indicate which format they were created with. this will help with both the previous bullets.
If we had a dozen of active developers and not 1-2. I've actually dropped data versioning to be able to implement things in time, not having to write/maintain revision glue code.

Quote:write migration scripts to automate changes to data file format.
This is what I am doing wherever possible.

Quote:come up with a regular release schedule and) only make major changes to data file formats at major releases, so that the "data API" is known to contributors at every release, and publish a list of changes (as well as a data format migration script, perhaps) to this API to make transitions easy.
Data changes are documented in the Wiki. How would you qualify a major release?

Quote:ensure that data contributors are up to the task of performing updates on their contributed data before data format changes are made.

choose a small number (10 or less) of "reference" cars and tracks to include in every release, which the developers will maintain as they make changes to the data formats, and which data contributors can use as examples to update their community maintained data.
Lets face it, how many active contributors do we have? It looks like the graphics and physics rewrite has frustrated/scared the leftovers. Not sure if my contributions to VDrift have been for good at all.

Quote:The latest two releases had problems, no fun
What features/functionality have to be fixed/changed to make it fun again? It would be great to have a list(maybe on the issue tracker).
Reply
12-01-2010, 06:14 PM,
#12
 
just for the record, i'm not scared. but i was the one hoping for lots of graphics updates Smile

haven't been doing much vdrift work lately. but there are lots of factors.
most note-able for me is
a) dwarf fortress release
b) hurt wrist from playing dwarf fortress (not a very ergonomic game)
c) stupid us holiday season making me busy

i feel like now i'll be able to model cars much faster. and, then, after they are in the game, if something is wrong they will be fix-able much faster.

i wish we had a visual model for the suspension parts, because i'm better at making sure something is correct when i can see where it looks bad.

as for release schedule. i think maybe just try to get a trio of binaries (windows, max, linux) out every 3-6 months. and perhaps fork svn data there? so the binaries will always work with that data. then after the next release erase the old fork. not sure how easy that is to do.

as for fun...i'm not really sure, i think vdrift is fun to work on, but not really fun to play yet. maybe some kind of career mode would do the trick. just be sure to make it keep track of how much money you've spent on cars and parts over the career so in the next version, even if something changes drastically, you can pickup pretty much where you left off.
Reply
12-02-2010, 02:31 AM,
#13
 
NaN Wrote:I've actually dropped data versioning to be able to implement things in time, not having to write/maintain revision glue code.
I see your point. Different version code is indeed annoying, but maybe just enough to refuse to load a version older than the code currently supports would be good.

Here's an idea: create some kind of simple (Python?) tool available from SVN that knew the formats and how to add/rename/remove fields for different versions. This tool could also possibly be used to validate data files, which would be handy to data authors as much as migrating data. Such a tool could also be integrated into a car or track editor.

NaN Wrote:
Quote:write migration scripts to automate changes to data file format.
This is what I am doing wherever possible.
Have you checked in your scripts anywhere? I don't see them in art or trunk.

NaN Wrote:Data changes are documented in the Wiki.
OK, before I didn't see the old car parameters page. Cool.

NaN Wrote:How would you qualify a major release?
Well that's up for debate. I think a major release would be completed well like this:
  • list all the goals of the project (various bug-fixes, improvements, new features, rewrites, etc.)
  • rank those goals by how long they will take and how important they are, noting dependencies between goals
  • select a set of goals: identify one very important but time-consuming task, and several easy quick tasks (preferably some which other goals depend on)
  • the next major release is made when the set of goals is complete.
I think that goal sets should be selected for two releases initially, and there should be a branch for the second set (the next major release) called development where unfinished changes to the next release can go without breaking trunk. Changes to trunk should always be merged to development as time goes on. When a release is made, trunk is tagged, all the changes in development are merged into trunk, and a goal set for the release (current + 2) is selected.

NaN Wrote:Lets face it, how many active contributors do we have?
That's a good question, I'll start a thread and we can see just how many there are. It would also help update the Contributors page on the wiki.

NaN Wrote:Not sure if my contributions to VDrift have been for good at all.
I would say you have done much good, and hope you will continue. I haven't helped any by being too busy to do any development for so long. Maybe I can help resolve some of these project management issues which seem to have become more important lately.

NaN Wrote:It would be great to have a list(maybe on the issue tracker).
Do you have access to the issue tracker? I can't tell that it's been updated much lately.
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12-02-2010, 03:05 AM,
#14
 
Hi,

What about using something like 'trac'? it will merge wiki, svn, bugtracker, etc. I'm not quite sure but seems to be handy.

As for fun, multiplayer or career, imho.
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12-02-2010, 10:04 AM,
#15
 
Quote:multiplayer or career
Hmm, heavy stuff. Haven't looked into multiplayer code yet.

Quote:tool available from SVN that knew the formats and how to add/rename/remove fields for different versions. This tool could also possibly be used to validate data files, which would be handy to data authors as much as migrating data.
I don't see the point of keeping data backwards compatible except keeping someone busy writing/updating scripts. We are tagging data revisions per release already. If the user wants the latest bells and whistles he should use the latest binary, tagged data.

Quote:Have you checked in your scripts anywhere? I don't see them in art or trunk.
Maybe I got you wrong. I am usually using scripts to update the data when changes arise. I don't see the value of keeping them.
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