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Code cleanup branch
08-04-2006, 01:53 AM,
#16
 
OK, I see what you mean. Well, now that I think about it, it might not be so bad, but it would take quite a while to rewrite all the references to those globals plus a little singleton initialization code. Won't this also make the singleton initialization affect the performance of functions that are called many times, which must use these formerly global data...?
Reply
08-04-2006, 01:53 AM,
#17
 
OK, I see what you mean. Well, now that I think about it, it might not be so bad, but it would take quite a while to rewrite all the references to those globals plus a little singleton initialization code. Won't this also make the singleton initialization affect the performance of functions that are called many times, which must use these formerly global data...?
Reply
08-04-2006, 01:58 AM,
#18
 
The singletons are only initalized once, the first time they are accessed. After that, future calls simply return a reference and really should be able to be inlined (but I am not sure). Globals are faster than singletons because they do not require a function call to access them (even if you store the returned reference), but then again arrays are faster than vectors. There should only be a small performance hit.

Updatating all the code would take some effort, but several of our global objects need to be redesigned anyway.
Reply
08-04-2006, 01:58 AM,
#19
 
The singletons are only initalized once, the first time they are accessed. After that, future calls simply return a reference and really should be able to be inlined (but I am not sure). Globals are faster than singletons because they do not require a function call to access them (even if you store the returned reference), but then again arrays are faster than vectors. There should only be a small performance hit.

Updatating all the code would take some effort, but several of our global objects need to be redesigned anyway.
Reply
08-04-2006, 09:08 AM,
#20
 
It seems to me that Singletons are the closest thing to what we need to clean up these global variables...Joe doesn't really seem to like them, but I don't see any other good solutions, besides just leaving things global. So the question is, how do we clean things up and keep Joe happy at the same time? Smile
Reply
08-04-2006, 09:08 AM,
#21
 
It seems to me that Singletons are the closest thing to what we need to clean up these global variables...Joe doesn't really seem to like them, but I don't see any other good solutions, besides just leaving things global. So the question is, how do we clean things up and keep Joe happy at the same time? Smile
Reply
08-04-2006, 08:38 PM,
#22
 
Leave them as globals. :-)

Quote:The thing I like about singletons is they are created on first use

... that sort of "feature" seems pretty annoying if you're trying to figure out when your data is actually being created, since it will just be buried within whatever function happens to call a GetInstance() type function first.

So, the things I don't like about singletons:
1) extra typing
2) the data is created whenever the singleton is first accessed (which is not easy to find out)
3) they use static data

I'm not sure what you guys perceive as the advantages beyond 2 up there, which I see as a disadvantage. Additionally, the use of static data (3) is no cleaner than using globals. Thelusiv, it sounds like your main problem with using global data is that it muddies up your namespace. That can be easily solved, though, by just putting the global vars inside their own namespace. That also gives you the option of doing a using namespace blah; to save on typing if you don't mind worrying about namespaces. Thelusiv, your other idea of putting all publics into a VGAME class would work too.

Most of all, using singletons would require a lot of re-writing -- again, with (as I see it) no benefits, and even disadvantages. This seems like a total waste of time, since there so many much more ugly and disorganized things in the code that need to be fixed. It sounds like you aren't interested in making the code more usable or clean, but rather trying to purge globals because you heard from a CS class / website / your friend they're a no-no (which seems silly, by the way, since singletons use static data, an even bigger no-no).
Reply
08-04-2006, 08:38 PM,
#23
 
Leave them as globals. :-)

Quote:The thing I like about singletons is they are created on first use

... that sort of "feature" seems pretty annoying if you're trying to figure out when your data is actually being created, since it will just be buried within whatever function happens to call a GetInstance() type function first.

So, the things I don't like about singletons:
1) extra typing
2) the data is created whenever the singleton is first accessed (which is not easy to find out)
3) they use static data

I'm not sure what you guys perceive as the advantages beyond 2 up there, which I see as a disadvantage. Additionally, the use of static data (3) is no cleaner than using globals. Thelusiv, it sounds like your main problem with using global data is that it muddies up your namespace. That can be easily solved, though, by just putting the global vars inside their own namespace. That also gives you the option of doing a using namespace blah; to save on typing if you don't mind worrying about namespaces. Thelusiv, your other idea of putting all publics into a VGAME class would work too.

Most of all, using singletons would require a lot of re-writing -- again, with (as I see it) no benefits, and even disadvantages. This seems like a total waste of time, since there so many much more ugly and disorganized things in the code that need to be fixed. It sounds like you aren't interested in making the code more usable or clean, but rather trying to purge globals because you heard from a CS class / website / your friend they're a no-no (which seems silly, by the way, since singletons use static data, an even bigger no-no).
Reply
08-06-2006, 02:43 PM,
#24
 
joevenzon Wrote:Leave them as globals. :-)

Quote:The thing I like about singletons is they are created on first use

... that sort of "feature" seems pretty annoying if you're trying to figure out when your data is actually being created, since it will just be buried within whatever function happens to call a GetInstance() type function first.

So, the things I don't like about singletons:

Quote:1) extra typing

Singleton's create minimal extra typing. And with the benefits singletons give you, I think the extra typing is worth it.

Quote:2) the data is created whenever the singleton is first accessed (which is not easy to find out)

It is easy to find out, and that data is created after main(). Unlike globals, you can know and control exactly when the data is created. Also, well designed global/singleton data should not be overly depenendent on other globals/singletons. A good singleton is designed so that it does not matter when it is first created, although this is not always possible.

Another advantage of singletons is eaiser error handling. Using globals, you cannot use exceptions to signal error conditions during construction and the only way to accomplish this sort of thing would be to have a two step construction process which is unnecessary. With a singleton, because it gets created in the main() function, you can catch any exceptions that may be thrown during construction. This is not possible with globals.

Quote:3) they use static data

I see no problems with this.

One other advantage singletons provide is ensuring that a global data member is only created once and only once.

These three questions and answers from the c++ faq, discuss this issue and potential problems with several possible solutions.
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/ct...#faq-10.12
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/ct...#faq-10.13
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/ct...#faq-10.14

A good post and thread on the subject:
http://www.codeguru.com/forum/showpost.p...stcount=11
Reply
08-06-2006, 02:43 PM,
#25
 
joevenzon Wrote:Leave them as globals. :-)

Quote:The thing I like about singletons is they are created on first use

... that sort of "feature" seems pretty annoying if you're trying to figure out when your data is actually being created, since it will just be buried within whatever function happens to call a GetInstance() type function first.

So, the things I don't like about singletons:

Quote:1) extra typing

Singleton's create minimal extra typing. And with the benefits singletons give you, I think the extra typing is worth it.

Quote:2) the data is created whenever the singleton is first accessed (which is not easy to find out)

It is easy to find out, and that data is created after main(). Unlike globals, you can know and control exactly when the data is created. Also, well designed global/singleton data should not be overly depenendent on other globals/singletons. A good singleton is designed so that it does not matter when it is first created, although this is not always possible.

Another advantage of singletons is eaiser error handling. Using globals, you cannot use exceptions to signal error conditions during construction and the only way to accomplish this sort of thing would be to have a two step construction process which is unnecessary. With a singleton, because it gets created in the main() function, you can catch any exceptions that may be thrown during construction. This is not possible with globals.

Quote:3) they use static data

I see no problems with this.

One other advantage singletons provide is ensuring that a global data member is only created once and only once.

These three questions and answers from the c++ faq, discuss this issue and potential problems with several possible solutions.
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/ct...#faq-10.12
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/ct...#faq-10.13
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/ct...#faq-10.14

A good post and thread on the subject:
http://www.codeguru.com/forum/showpost.p...stcount=11
Reply
08-06-2006, 07:45 PM,
#26
 
Quote:Unlike globals, you can know and control exactly when the data is created.

How is this useful for a class that is expected by the coder to always be present? I understand what you're saying, and you're right, it's technically an advantage, but in the context of this game how would it be an advantage?

Quote:you can catch any exceptions that may be thrown during construction

How is this useful unless you're doing a lot of serious loading within the constructor (bad style)? You should always have a separate Load() function if you're going to be doing something that relies on external data -- not in the constructor! If it's not obvious why, I can elaborate. Again, I understand that it's technically an advantage, but in the context of this game I don't think it'd ever be useful.

Quote:3) they use static data

My point there was just that IF someone wants to use singletons simply because they don't have the stigma of globals, then they'd be deceiving themselves, because singletons use statics, and statics are in fact globals.

Based on the two advantages above, which I seriously doubt would ever be used in this game, they're not even worth the minimal extra typing that would be required to use them -- not to mention the time spent implementing them.

If you (or thelusiv) want to spend that time to get everything working with singletons in the code-cleanup branch, I'm willing to take a second look at their merits for use in this project. Until then, though, I'm sticking to my guns.
Reply
08-06-2006, 07:45 PM,
#27
 
Quote:Unlike globals, you can know and control exactly when the data is created.

How is this useful for a class that is expected by the coder to always be present? I understand what you're saying, and you're right, it's technically an advantage, but in the context of this game how would it be an advantage?

Quote:you can catch any exceptions that may be thrown during construction

How is this useful unless you're doing a lot of serious loading within the constructor (bad style)? You should always have a separate Load() function if you're going to be doing something that relies on external data -- not in the constructor! If it's not obvious why, I can elaborate. Again, I understand that it's technically an advantage, but in the context of this game I don't think it'd ever be useful.

Quote:3) they use static data

My point there was just that IF someone wants to use singletons simply because they don't have the stigma of globals, then they'd be deceiving themselves, because singletons use statics, and statics are in fact globals.

Based on the two advantages above, which I seriously doubt would ever be used in this game, they're not even worth the minimal extra typing that would be required to use them -- not to mention the time spent implementing them.

If you (or thelusiv) want to spend that time to get everything working with singletons in the code-cleanup branch, I'm willing to take a second look at their merits for use in this project. Until then, though, I'm sticking to my guns.
Reply
08-06-2006, 11:25 PM,
#28
 
joevenzon Wrote:
Quote:Unlike globals, you can know and control exactly when the data is created.

How is this useful for a class that is expected by the coder to always be present? I understand what you're saying, and you're right, it's technically an advantage, but in the context of this game how would it be an advantage?

This may not apply specifically in our case. You are correct, but as we redesign the code, things like this may become a concern to achieve a faster startup time or do other optimizations.

Quote:
Quote:you can catch any exceptions that may be thrown during construction

How is this useful unless you're doing a lot of serious loading within the constructor (bad style)? You should always have a separate Load() function if you're going to be doing something that relies on external data -- not in the constructor! If it's not obvious why, I can elaborate. Again, I understand that it's technically an advantage, but in the context of this game I don't think it'd ever be useful.

Here we hold different opinions. I think it is preferble to initilize as much of an object as you can when you create it, which also means creating it closest to it's first use. There will always be cases where it does not make sense to do that.

You seem to prefer a seperate Load()/Init() function.

Quote:
Quote:3) they use static data

My point there was just that IF someone wants to use singletons simply because they don't have the stigma of globals, then they'd be deceiving themselves, because singletons use statics, and statics are in fact globals.

Based on the two advantages above, which I seriously doubt would ever be used in this game, they're not even worth the minimal extra typing that would be required to use them -- not to mention the time spent implementing them.

Although I do think globals should generally not be used, there are very few absolutes when it comes to things like this. There are plenty of cases where globals are just fine. In our case with vdrift, a lot of the globals we use would work better as singletons in my eyes. I can't point out any specific instances with out diving into the code, but this is the impression I got from my past adventures through the source.

Also I am not against globals for begin globals (as you say, statics are globals, they just have a limited namespace/scope and are created at a different time).

Quote:If you (or thelusiv) want to spend that time to get everything working with singletons in the code-cleanup branch, I'm willing to take a second look at their merits for use in this project. Until then, though, I'm sticking to my guns.

We could go on quite a while back and forth with the pros and cons of each approach Smile. I think we have presented a good overview of the issue here, and I say we leave the decision of what to do in his branch with Chris. Once it's done as you said, you can take what you like and leave the rest.
Reply
08-06-2006, 11:25 PM,
#29
 
joevenzon Wrote:
Quote:Unlike globals, you can know and control exactly when the data is created.

How is this useful for a class that is expected by the coder to always be present? I understand what you're saying, and you're right, it's technically an advantage, but in the context of this game how would it be an advantage?

This may not apply specifically in our case. You are correct, but as we redesign the code, things like this may become a concern to achieve a faster startup time or do other optimizations.

Quote:
Quote:you can catch any exceptions that may be thrown during construction

How is this useful unless you're doing a lot of serious loading within the constructor (bad style)? You should always have a separate Load() function if you're going to be doing something that relies on external data -- not in the constructor! If it's not obvious why, I can elaborate. Again, I understand that it's technically an advantage, but in the context of this game I don't think it'd ever be useful.

Here we hold different opinions. I think it is preferble to initilize as much of an object as you can when you create it, which also means creating it closest to it's first use. There will always be cases where it does not make sense to do that.

You seem to prefer a seperate Load()/Init() function.

Quote:
Quote:3) they use static data

My point there was just that IF someone wants to use singletons simply because they don't have the stigma of globals, then they'd be deceiving themselves, because singletons use statics, and statics are in fact globals.

Based on the two advantages above, which I seriously doubt would ever be used in this game, they're not even worth the minimal extra typing that would be required to use them -- not to mention the time spent implementing them.

Although I do think globals should generally not be used, there are very few absolutes when it comes to things like this. There are plenty of cases where globals are just fine. In our case with vdrift, a lot of the globals we use would work better as singletons in my eyes. I can't point out any specific instances with out diving into the code, but this is the impression I got from my past adventures through the source.

Also I am not against globals for begin globals (as you say, statics are globals, they just have a limited namespace/scope and are created at a different time).

Quote:If you (or thelusiv) want to spend that time to get everything working with singletons in the code-cleanup branch, I'm willing to take a second look at their merits for use in this project. Until then, though, I'm sticking to my guns.

We could go on quite a while back and forth with the pros and cons of each approach Smile. I think we have presented a good overview of the issue here, and I say we leave the decision of what to do in his branch with Chris. Once it's done as you said, you can take what you like and leave the rest.
Reply
08-07-2006, 09:26 AM,
#30
 
Agreed. Good discussion.
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