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Pacejka again
02-20-2012, 09:25 AM,
#1
Pacejka again
Some might have noticed it. Since the camber calculation fix the F1-02 tends to drift to the right.

Example
1. front left: 10deg slip angle and 5deg camber results in 4877N lateral force
2. front right: -10deg slip angle and -5deg camber results in -5790N lateral force
3. front right: -10deg slip angle and 5deg camber results in -4877N lateral force

In the first and second line both wheels inclined against movement direction generate different lateral force magnitudes, implies that it would make a difference whether the left or right side of the wheel is inclined against heading direction.

In the third line the right wheel inclined towards heading direction generates the same lateral force magnitude as the opposing left wheel. I would expect it to generate less lateral grip. A hint that the camber sign is somehow related to slip angle sign?

I am using the following coordinate system: http://ti.mb.fh-osnabrueck.de/adamshelp/..._coord.htm

I am wondering if pacejka is restricted(valid only) to the upper right quadrant(positive values). Or is it a parameters issue or something else?

Any ideas, insights are very welcomed.
Reply
02-20-2012, 09:46 AM,
#2
 
The idea with the restriction to the upper right quadrant is supported by the fact that the camber is shifting the lateral force(red) vertically which would result in a accelerating force towards movement direction for small negative slip angles.

[Image: 63584994.jpg]
Reply
02-20-2012, 01:20 PM,
#3
 
The problematic parameters are a12, a13 as they introduce asymmetries into lateral force calculation. I think we should set them to zero as we are using the same parameters for all wheels independent whether they are on the left or right side.
Reply
02-20-2012, 03:28 PM,
#4
 
Messing with a12, a13 still doesn't help, will have to revert the code again. I have no idea why the old code actually works. It is just wrong for the cases where camber is not zero. But then most of the time the camber is somewhere between +-5deg.
Reply
02-27-2012, 11:35 AM,
#5
 
I don't follow; shouldn't the sign of the camber be the same for left and right side wheels, like in 1 & 3?
Reply
02-27-2012, 02:22 PM,
#6
 
Yeah, I should have used the word inclination as camber is defined as positive when top of the wheel is farther out than the bottom.

I am using this definition(from the link above):
"Positive when the top of the tire tilts to the right (when viewing the tire from the rear)."
Reply
03-07-2012, 01:00 PM,
#7
 
i've some trouble that I think is similar...
in my car that I created, when I brake (not hard brake, slow brake) the back starts to slip.. after some debug I've found that the load on the rear wheels is near 0, all the weight is on the front wheels.... and it's normal that the rear slip...

maybe a problem of center of mass? / inertia?
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09-06-2012, 06:35 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-06-2012, 07:55 AM by MiguelM.)
#8
RE: Pacejka again
Hello, NaN.

First off, good info posted by yourself (also others) in these threads. Very helpful in one's beginning with vDrift.

Secondly, if you have any advices, throw them, they'll be most welcome. [Especially, a reference to a "Getting Started" thread containing the necessary steps.] Smile

Thirdly, I have yet to read all the documentation and threads, but I was wondering: which version of Pacejka is vDrift using?

Finally, what would you think of a fork for a new tire physics model, called SWIFT?

Thank you in advance.

EDIT:

- going through other threads, you mentioned going back to Pacejka89 to solve one issue.
- may not be necessary a fork, I can work in it privately as there seem to be 2 directions I can follow: a more "physical" approach (similar to what ISI are doing with isiMotor2.5) or this SWIFT approach (which seems interesting).
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09-06-2012, 07:56 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-06-2012, 08:09 AM by NaN.)
#9
RE: Pacejka again
(09-06-2012, 06:35 AM)MiguelM Wrote: Hello, NaN.

First off, good info posted by yourself (also others) in these threads. Very helpful in one's beginning with vDrift.

Secondly, if you have any advices, throw them, they'll be most welcome.

Thirdly, I have yet to read all the documentation and threads, but I was wondering: which version of Pacejka is vDrift using?

Finally, what would you think of a fork for a new tire physics model, called SWIFT?

Thank you in advance.

EDIT:

- going through other threads, you mentioned going back to Pacejka89 to solve one issue.
- may not be necessary a fork, I can work in it privately as there seem to be 2 directions I can follow: a more "physical" approach (similar to what ISI are doing with isiMotor2.5) or this SWIFT approach (which seems interesting).

Do you have access to SWIFT model, data? The only thing I know about SWIFT is, that it is an extended Pacejka to model dynamic effects(rigid ring model?). You will additionally need vertical stiffness, damping?

As to the Pacejka version, 96 maybe? It is using 15 longitudinal, 11 lateral, 18 aligning coefficients.

Personally I'd love to experiment with a more simple model if I had some time to spare:
Coulomb and Stribeck with friction transition region(linear?) at origin. And then parametrize the coefficients(maybe tire load as parameter) and try to fit the tire friction curve from Pacejka.

Anyway, I'd suggest you to create a fork on github.

https://github.com/VDrift



Btw there has been some talk to add tire slip and load damping/filtering, which could maybe count as a crude dynamic model, but mainly to reduce oscillations.
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09-06-2012, 09:23 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-06-2012, 09:34 AM by MiguelM.)
#10
RE: Pacejka again
(09-06-2012, 07:56 AM)NaN Wrote: Do you have access to SWIFT model, data? The only thing I know about SWIFT is, that it is an extended Pacejka to model dynamic effects(rigid ring model?). You will additionally need vertical stiffness, damping?

It is still a semi-empirical model. We can use it to "build" the tire (physically) and add to it Pacejka based slip calculations. What is more, it offers a 6 DOF, just like the new physical model used by isiMotor2.5 (which seems to be slightly more advanced than SWIFT).

We can model stiffness and damping for forces in the major axis: longitudinally, laterally and vertically. As it is basically a ring in contact with the rim, we can ignore flexible nodes of the steel and wedge belts (not optimum, indeed) and still deal with flexible sidewalls.

As for data...I may be able to...er...procure it. We'll see.

The beauty of it is that you can deal with (partly) with physical model of the tire and add MF to calculate slip. I am not too sure though if vDrift will easily support it. I am very much in the beginning of going through portions of the code.

Quote:As to the Pacejka version, 96 maybe? It is using 15 longitudinal, 11 lateral, 18 aligning coefficients.

Ok. Ruud and Eugene have also used 96 at some point - probably still use (though both are using Veble's methods).

Quote:Personally I'd love to experiment with a more simple model if I had some time to spare:
Coulomb and Stribeck with friction transition region(linear?) at origin. And then parametrize the coefficients(maybe tire load as parameter) and try to fit the tire friction curve from Pacejka.

I dunno. How do you deal with the discontinuity when v=0? You'd have to apply a different function (continuous) and decide at what velocity ranges it kicks in.

As I said, I find physical approaches interesting but with a very negative side effect: finding the data (what's worse, the type of data tire companies or racing teams are not so keen on sharing).

So, I'm thinking a semi-empirical might be a good alternative. SWIFT looks good, I don't know however how efficient it will end up being.

Problem is data - if I can procure it, fine, otherwise there'll have to be good old estimations.



Quote:Anyway, I'd suggest you to create a fork on github.

Ok.


Quote:
Btw there has been some talk to add tire slip and load damping/filtering, which could maybe count as a crude dynamic model, but mainly to reduce oscillations.

You mean add to the current model? Has anyone tried it before?

--

And btw, as I am by no means an expert, I will learn a lot from the code you wrote and your threads.
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09-06-2012, 10:13 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-06-2012, 10:14 AM by NaN.)
#11
RE: Pacejka again
(09-06-2012, 09:23 AM)MiguelM Wrote: I dunno. How do you deal with the discontinuity when v=0? You'd have to apply a different function (continuous) and decide at what velocity ranges it kicks in.

The discontinuity is what I meant with transition region. The model is as Pacejka quasi-static, would be matched against current vdrift Pacejka data. The difference would be a physical origin and meaningful parameters. The number of parameters would be much lower too. But it is just an idea I've had for some time now.

Funnily enough, the recently merged code is using friction constraints, would be able to deal with the discontinuity.

Quote:You mean add to the current model? Has anyone tried it before?

I haven't tried it yet, don't know if anyone else has.

Quote:And btw, as I am by no means an expert, I will learn a lot from the code you wrote and your threads.

No expert either, learning from vdrift code and simulation behavior, trying things out to see what works and what doesn't. The code has some longer history before I joined the project.
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