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Different surfaces?
04-10-2009, 04:41 PM,
#16
 
joevenzon Wrote:How about this:
* the objects/list.txt file calls out a surface type id for each object (like "road" or "grass-01" or whatever)
* there is a global file that defines parameters for some basic surfaces as some basic IDs (like "grass")
* each track can optionally define its own list of parameters, and any surface IDs that overlap with the global file get overwritten
as long as we can overwrite for each track, that's fine. for the actual format of this surface file, it would be nice if we could define the coefficients (friction, drag, rolling resistance) and a set of reactions (skids, tiresmoke, spray). the tdf files in rFactor are a good example of how other simulators are handling surfaces (they call them materials).

--alex--
Reply
04-11-2009, 03:40 PM,
#17
 
joevenzon Wrote:If you're interested in extending this to different driving surfaces:
I've got most of that stuff added now. The surface value is read and added the the TRACK_OBJECT Class and CAR::UpdateSounds can find out what surface each wheel thinks it is on. I thought I had managed to get the extra sounds working (at least there are no error messages!) but somehow they aren't playing.

If I swap the filenames around (grass switched with tire_squeal) the sounds are loaded and played. If I switch the variable names around I can get the tire_squeal sound on grass and silence on the road. But for some reason I can't get the grass sounds and the tire_squeal sounds to play at the same time. I'm sure its something really obvious so I'll keep looking... :?

alex25 Wrote:
joevenzon Wrote:How about this:
* the objects/list.txt file calls out a surface type id for each object (like "road" or "grass-01" or whatever)
* there is a global file that defines parameters for some basic surfaces as some basic IDs (like "grass")
* each track can optionally define its own list of parameters, and any surface IDs that overlap with the global file get overwritten
...for the actual format of this surface file, it would be nice if we could define the coefficients (friction, drag, rolling resistance) and a set of reactions (skids, tiresmoke, spray).

I had a look into one of those files, there's a lot in there! I hadn't really thought about how the sound and particle effects need to change, that's going to take some working out. For now I'm thinking that getting the default list sorted in a sensible way is the first task. Then that can be used as a prototype for working out the format of the per track file.

So how's this for a rundown of default surfaces?

Asphalt
Grass
Gravel
Kerbs (or Curbs if you are American Wink )
Sand
Concrete (for pits and other non-asphalt areas)

Is there anything important I've missed out?
Reply
04-13-2009, 01:23 PM,
#18
 
slowDan Wrote:I'm sure its something really obvious so I'll keep looking... :?
It was! It turned out I was forgetting to update the positions of the new sounds, they were working but only back at the start! :lol:

So far I have just added grass and gravel. Tracks with 17 parameters in list.txt can have the 17th field set to:

1 - Asphalt
2 - grass
3 - gravel

Tracks with less parameters assume that the Bezier patches are Asphalt and everything else is gravel.

It seems to default to the last value in the SURFACES list when nothing is specified so I guess these numbers might be subject to change until the final list gets nailed down.
Reply
04-13-2009, 05:33 PM,
#19
 
slowDan Wrote:1 - Asphalt
2 - grass
3 - gravel
can we go with names, instead of numbers? makes reading the track files a lot easier (instead of trying to remember what each number means). thanks.

--alex--
Reply
04-13-2009, 10:23 PM,
#20
 
Just saw your commit, looks great! My only comment is that you should provide a default value when you initialize surface_type in track.cpp ContinueObjectLoad() in case the track doesn't have the surface type parameter specified.

Other random thoughts:
* I wonder if having different sound sources for each surface type times 4 (one for each wheel) will end up causing performance issues with the sound subsystem. I wouldn't change anything but it's something to keep an eye on.
* It'd be cool to have different road-noise sounds depending on the surface (especially for driving on the kerb).
* I've always thought it'd be neat to have a tires-are-maxed-out sound that is pretty subdued and comes in before the tire squeal sound, so you know when your tires are at their limit.
* The grass sound is hard to hear, maybe it could be louder?
Reply
04-14-2009, 03:17 AM,
#21
 
joevenzon Wrote:you should provide a default value when you initialize surface_type
Definitely. The default behaviour at the moment works out quite well, but its more by luck than anything else. I'm trying to think if there is an easy way I can change the wheel collision routine based on how many parameters the track has. That would mean that if you have a surfaces value it gets used for all surfaces, bezier patch or not. But if you don't, the bezier patches determine what noises get made.

Of course the other method is to make sure all tracks get the extra parameter! :wink:

Quote:Other random thoughts:
Performance - The sound system makes sure that the data only gets loaded once right? So in effect the sound source is a pointer to it and a set of pitch, gain, and playhead data. I wouldn't think that would cause too much of a problem. I do wonder though, if its better to share the position data with all the other wheel sounds? Otherwise you have to call several times to update them all.

Kerb-noises - I've been thinking about this and I might have to contradict myself. Big Grin Kerbs are mostly concrete, with bumps. So the tire-bump noise should do enough on its own to let you know you are on a kerb?

Tires-maxed sound - I'll have a look, so far I've just used GetTireSquealAmount() without worrying about how it works!

Grass louder - Shouldn't be a problem.

@ alex25 - can do. Obviously it means that typos are easier to make and harder to detect, so there is a trade off.
Reply
04-19-2009, 06:15 PM,
#22
 
slowDan Wrote:Performance - The sound system makes sure that the data only gets loaded once right? So in effect the sound source is a pointer to it and a set of pitch, gain, and playhead data. I wouldn't think that would cause too much of a problem. I do wonder though, if its better to share the position data with all the other wheel sounds? Otherwise you have to call several times to update them all.

You are correct about the way the sound buffers work. In addition, during the sound callback that mixes sound data, it knows to ignore sounds with zero gain... so this probably isn't a problem.

Quote:Kerb-noises - I've been thinking about this and I might have to contradict myself. Big Grin Kerbs are mostly concrete, with bumps. So the tire-bump noise should do enough on its own to let you know you are on a kerb?

Yeah, I think if we tune it correctly it should automatically add the bump sounds (it does already, sort of), although not necessarily as fast as you would hear them if you were really on a kerb. Probably not a big deal, though.
Reply
04-21-2009, 03:22 PM,
#23
 
I added in a default value so that if the track contains less than 17 parameters the run-off areas set themselves to the grass setting. I also added a couple more surface variations:

3 - Concrete
4 - Sand

(Names for settings are on their way honest! Wink )

I'm having no luck finding different sounds for those, so I made it so that the sounds that are already used are tweaked to sound different on those surfaces.

I started to try and figure out a way to get the surface to be read when you are on the bezier patches, which raised a small problem. The wheel collision checks to see if you hit a bezier patch first and then skips the rest of the routine if you have. This means that it doesn't check against the map objects, which is where the surface setting is stored!

The first thought I had was to just store the bezier collision data and continue on to the map object collision. But the bezier patches are there to smooth out the polygons, so I guess it must be possible to hit a bezier patch but not a map object? Which would be sure to cause some problems further down the line! Is there some simple way to ensure that you get a map object collision?

The whole thing confused me, so I decided to do something else in the meantime. That was adding a rear view button. It started off simple then got a little complicated because the car was catching up with the chase camera. I managed to disable that though and set up some sensible defaults, which proved to be a good distraction. Smile
Reply
04-21-2009, 11:56 PM,
#24
 
slowDan Wrote:I started to try and figure out a way to get the surface to be read when you are on the bezier patches, which raised a small problem. The wheel collision checks to see if you hit a bezier patch first and then skips the rest of the routine if you have.

But... isn't the bezier patch is always just road?

Quote:Is there some simple way to ensure that you get a map object collision?

So I think you'd have to try to modify the collision code in game.cpp so that even if it finds a bezier patch collision, it continues on and does a collision against the map objects, and if the depth is similar to the bezier object, it uses the *surface type* from the map object but uses the collision depth from the bezier surface.
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04-22-2009, 12:24 AM,
#25
 
slowDan Wrote:I decided to do something else in the meantime. That was adding a rear view button. It started off simple then got a little complicated because the car was catching up with the chase camera. I managed to disable that though and set up some sensible defaults, which proved to be a good distraction. Smile

Cool, this is a nice feature! You did a good job. I made a few tweaks:
* I set analog=1 in the data/skins/simple/menus/CarControls file; this is kind of an undocumented feature but if you set analog=1 then by default VDrift will set buttons that you assign here to be "held", which makes sense for this control because you have to hold it down
* in carinput.h I moved the REAR_VIEW control after GAME_ONLY_INPUTS_START_HERE because it doesn't affect the dynamics of the car so doesn't need to be recorded in replays or (eventually) sent during multiplay
* in track.cpp I made the default type set when the surface_type variable is instantiated above instead of in the if/else statement, for no good reason except that it matches what was done for isashadow and clamptexture
* in car.cpp I rotated offset you were applying so it applies correctly as the car rotates -- you might want to check and make sure that it's still the offset you expected since before it was in the wrong frame
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04-22-2009, 01:24 PM,
#26
 
joevenzon Wrote:But... isn't the bezier patch is always just road?
The cobblestones at the hairpin in Rouen and the concrete banking at the Karrusel in the Nurburgring should probably not have the same properties as the rest of the track. (Not to mention the whole rally and rallycross can of worms :wink: )

Quote:if the depth is similar to the bezier object, it uses the *surface type* from the map object but uses the collision depth from the bezier surface.
Thats what I'm a little worried/confused about. Are the two close enough that a hit on one ensures a hit on the other? I guess I have to do some rigorous testing to make sure!
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04-22-2009, 08:02 PM,
#27
 
The bezier patches are traced from the map objects in the track editor, so they should be almost perfectly lined up. The only downside to this method is that it causes two collision queries, but that's not too bad. I added a real-time profiling feature, so if you append -profiling to the end of the vdrift command line you'll be able to see in real-time how much CPU is used for the various functions (including collision).
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05-16-2009, 04:48 AM,
#28
 
I've finally got around to committing my latest changes.

I've added a method that allows the game to check if the track is using the surfaces flag. If so it switches to an alternate set of wheel collision methods which check for a model collision as well as bezier patch collisions. There are still some safety checks in there just in case the collision doesn't find a model, so look out for errors on tracks with 17 parameters!

I had a little problem when it came to storing the map object for cached collisions. Eventually I came up with the idea of putting a reference in contact.GetCollidingObject2() which seems to be working ok.

This got me thinking about adding the extra parameters to some other tracks, so I got sidetracked by making a list editor with a GUI in Python. Not useful enough for anyone else to play with it yet but I'm getting there. :wink:
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05-17-2009, 11:37 AM,
#29
 
Cool, seems to work fine. A GUI list editor would be really handy!
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05-17-2009, 12:59 PM,
#30
 
slowDan Wrote:IThis got me thinking about adding the extra parameters to some other tracks, so I got sidetracked by making a list editor with a GUI in Python. Not useful enough for anyone else to play with it yet but I'm getting there. :wink:
can we move all the surface related parameters to a different file? list.txt is really becoming unmanageable and a lot of parameters' values really have to do with the type of surface. can we have materials.txt with something like this:
grass
{
friction coefficients
bumpiness
etc
}
grass1
{
....
}
gravel
{
....
}
having names would make it a lot easier but i'll go with numbers for the time being. thanks.

--alex--
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