More Realistic Physics - Printable Version
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More Realistic Physics - joevenzon - 10-12-2005 11:34 AM
So far, the highest vote in the "next new feature" poll is for "more realistic physics". That's pretty broad, and I'm curious exactly what people are looking for. For example, the tire model in VDrift uses the pacejka formula, which is what F1 teams and tire manufacturers use to characterize their tires, and is actually more realistic than the tire models in gran turismo 4 (just try to do donuts -- you can't), EA's excellent F1 games (which use a spline approximation), and Live for Speed (they use a simplified, forgiving tire model). Which is not to say the physics in those games isn't more realistic in other areas; LFS has more realistic suspension physics than VDrift, and GT4 models things like tire wear. Also, their car settings are better than ours, since we're doing a lot of stabbing in the dark at the moment. In general, though, more realism will mean the cars will be more difficult to drive on the computer (especially without force feedback).My question, I guess, is what you people think we need to improve. If the cars need to be easier to drive (and more similar to most other racing games), the physics would need to get *less* realistic. So, do we need:1) more realistic tire modelling (which will make the cars more difficult to drive)2) less realistic tire modelling (which will make the cars handle more easily)3) driver assist systems (traction control and ABS, will make the cars much easier to drive)4) better suspension modelling (probably will be a subtle handling handling difference, no easier or harder)5) better car settings (won't necessarily make the cars easier or harder to drive, but at least make them more like their real life counterparts)6) something elseAlso, I should mention that I think a big priority for development should be to get some rudimentary system set up to adjust car settings in-game -- to at least to be able to pick your tires, which would allow you to choose 1 or 2 from the above list while you're playing -- we could have three categories of tires, simulation tires derived from tire manufacturer data (the mustang in SVN now has real alpine tire data, and suspension/brake settings from LFS -- go check it out), semi-simulation tires (taking the sim tires and tweaking them to handle a bit more like other racing games -- LFS and GT4), and arcade tires (very forgiving and similar to games like need for speed).I should also note that the simulation tires now on the mustang in SVN seem like they have tons of oversteer -- that's because there's a narrow slip angle at which they exert the most force (i.e., if you're turning the wheel 5 degrees from the direction your car is going, the tires will turn well, but if you turn to 8 or more degrees, the tires won't grip very well and will just skid forward) -- this is a property of real tires (according to alpine's actual test rig data), but it makes it tough to drive with them in a computer simulation, since the 3 degree difference between turning and not turning is difficult to feel when you're not sitting in the car.Anyway, this is enough for now. Are there any Racer gurus out there? I know they went through this same discussion a couple of years ago, and I'd be interested to hear their comments.
More Realistic Physics - gianni - 10-12-2005 03:54 PM
Quote:I'm curious exactly what people are looking for.For me people want cars easier to drive. For example when I drift at low speed I think I'm driving above an ice track (at high speed it's ok), but I think it's all about car settings.
Quote:My question, I guess, is what you people think we need to improve. If the cars need to be easier to drive (and more similar to most other racing games), the physics would need to get *less* realistic.What do you think about if the user can choose an arcade mode or simulation mode like the game GTR: FIA GT Racing?
Quote:Also, I should mention that I think a big priority for development should be to get some rudimentary system set up to adjust car settings in-gameI agree. For example I like very much the car settings of GT4. I vote for that for priority.Gianni
More Realistic Physics - thelusiv - 10-12-2005 05:05 PM
Since I play this game all the time my views risk being somewhat subjective on this matter. I would really like to have different tire settings like a "realistic" setting, a more "arcade" setting and something in between maybe. However if we do this there will be a need to somehow equalize players in competitions - for instance it wouldn't be fair to compare times between a player with arcade tires versus one with realistic tires.
More Realistic Physics - joevenzon - 10-12-2005 08:36 PM
Yeah, I think for competitions you'd all have to be using similarly set-up cars to keep the difficulty similar (unless you wanted to allow people to have a handicap or something).
More Realistic Physics - Nexus6 - 10-16-2005 12:47 PM
<p>One of the issues I see since the new tyre physics code came in is that the cars are much more "alive" in a skid - it's tough to pull out of a skid in reality and the same is true here. Given that the tracks now have a lot of off-camber bends, it's much easier to lose the back end of the car in those corners and that has REALLY cranked up the difficulty level. Coupled with the curbs kicking the car hard in the corners if you don't get a clean line, it's become much harder and more exacting to make a complete lap without a spin.<p>I'd really like to see the tracks have properly cambered bends but I'll post more in the track thread.<p>If we could "change the tyres" in game, either through a set of presets or actually right down and dirty in the Pacejka coefficients (all 30+ :DToby Haynes
More Realistic Physics - joevenzon - 10-17-2005 12:30 AM
That's as I suspected... I'm working on adding the tire switching capability for the next release. That and OSX compatibility are the big priorities at the moment, I think.
RE: More Realistic Physics - jzx100 - 12-04-2016 01:41 AM
i know this thread is EXTREMELY old, but im very curious about what you meant about the f1 games using a spline approximation. if possible, could you give me some more info about it? and possibly some links to documents about how i could implement it? thanks
RE: More Realistic Physics - NaN - 12-04-2016 12:21 PM
Probably simply approximating the tire friction curve at some fixed tire load using a (cubic) spline.